Thursday, April 5, 2007

MBAs: Drained Brains

What is the aspiration that drives a top engineering student in India to get into a business school? Is it entrepreneur zeal? Could be. Or is it the understanding of how business systems work. Maybe. Is it the salary and boost in marriage market? Most Probably.

A vast majority of Engineering colleges are used as a path toward MBA. This has huge negative consequences towards our society. Let us consider a mechanical engineering student, joining IIT, and getting through, using the degree to join IIM and later on make strategies to sell shampoos and soaps. Friends do we need a strategy to sell soaps and shampoos? I don’t think so. I am giving my free consulting idea here. If you gotta sell shampoos, oils, talcum powder try to get the average heights of the purchasers region wise. Now the competition between brands will be a matter of keeping them on the shelve that corresponds to the heights of the consumer. No brand ambassadors are needed. With this idea I am just saving Millions of Dollars that companies spend in endorsing celebrities to sell soaps. I could come with this idea because my mind hasn’t been slowed by an expensive MBA degree whose contents can be understood with a Rs.100 membership/month in a public library. Besides MBAs teach to templatize creativity

Now let’s come to the crux. When an Engineer goes for an MBA to sell soaps, the country loses an engineer and a useless manager is created. Let’s take the example of Pepsi and Coke (the drink that does more harm that cocaine). When Amir Khan comes and says the constituent ingredients of Coke are harmless, means that drink is not harmful. I am sure this piece of information is scripted by an MBA with limited thinking capacity. I believe whoever wrote that must go back to standard VI and see that the constituent elements of sugar and petrol are same. Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen, to be precise. Since we eat sugar, can we also drink petrol (according to the script)? I have always known that actors in this country are people with limited intelligence, but the same holds for the marketing people here.

Lets turn to MIT, CALTECH, Stanford once. The best of the engineers don’t work for Procter and Gamble but usually joins Los Alamos Lab , DoD, or get to doctoral level research. What they come up with? Almost everything. From Rayban aviators to antidandruff shampoos (which our MBAs sell) to weapons. I don’t say that engineers from these institute don’t join B–schools, the bests don’t. But the vast majority of students who do so for entrepreneual ambitions. The companies formed by MIT – Sloan’s Alumni alone constitute the 24th largest economy in the world. IIM with its focus for strategizing soap selling cannot reach there.

The more MBAs India produces we are pushed towards the demand side of world terrorism and consumerism (they are almost the same thing). The weapons and toys that they build are often sold in here, coz here the engineers won’t build them, but instead relax in their AC rooms, with bulging belly and making power point presentation on an industry they know nothing about. This also has a link with the system of arranged marriage. An MBA is often a key to increased boost in the marriage market which often competes on the norms of any competitive market.

Keeping all these in mind if USA decides that the tension between India and Pakistan would boost its weapon sales, if the lack pollution will increase sales of antidandruff shampoos, so be it. Coz we are a market a mere market, coin by our engineers who sell soaps.

42 comments:

a big yawn said...

Could not agree with you any more, on this topic..MBA is just a ticket for a cushy lucrative job.. which i s killing the Indian treasury,, while IIT is spending a huge amount to train them as Engineers.. they prfer the a cushy JM Morgan Stanley or a ny Investment banking job after a good B school degree..
Tell what is the need of a Mechanical Engineering degree for Investment Banking..you might as well have done an Economics Honours where you would have been taught what is Swaps/Options /Derivatives any way.. and not forge shop mantras
Having a lot of MBA friends from top notch colleges i have realised, as they have said.. MBA is a whole lot of Globe.. it teaches u the art of Faffing .. As Confucious once said if u cant convince them confuse them.. and bingo you have your degree.
I know students from B schools pertaining to foreign trade, coming to me to get their Fundas straight regarding theory of comparative advantage..
the basic building block of International trade..
what they are taught .. is just the application of theories.. without knowing them..
While in statistics they are taught if z value is is less than 0 then reject the null hypothesis..but why.. they are never taught.. and the students never ask..

My professor once said.. a good MA in Economics.. is as good as an MBA if not better.. at least you know the theories behind the application
only.. the tag of the MBA not being there you will be paid 20k less a month.. and your prospects of higher dowry diminishes( don't get me wrong here)

avimanyu said...

U are right. Sometimes Physics background people are needed in Finance. I believe some models of physics and pure math are used to track stock market movement. Geometric Brownian Movement, stocastic calculus. There fundamental science is important. I have friend in UC Berkeley working on artificial intelligence and is an engineer from IIT. He uses his fundamentals of physicas to predict stock prices.

Anonymous said...

wow! great blog! well written as usual. I totally agree wid u. although the idea of an MBA did seem appealing 2 me sm yrs ago, i quickly changed my mind after i saw wat it entailed. i also blv that a degree in ecomomics is much superior to doin an MBA. as for increased salary, money will come whem sm1 is good at doin smthn, wid or w/o a fancy MBA tag! and as for more chances of good dowry, i think women rather stay unmarried than marry non-men who depend on dowry to acquire lifestyle gadgets and more money.

avimanyu said...

Thanks Priya....
What do think of kille marketing strategies that involve Amir khan and the other more stupid one????

Leading edge is bleeding edge

a big yawn said...

talking of stock markets.. its another pandora's box here.. i personally believe you cant track the stock market.. u track human behaviour.. which again is unpredictable..
if riots around singur erupt do you to some farmer.. woke up in the morning .. and felt ok i have nothing better to do.. so lets burn the fencing..
TATA motors stock prices will crash..
the whole funda of the Stock market is the function of what we call the error term..hahhaha

Anonymous said...

Avi...this one is truly, truly brilliant!!!!

avimanyu said...

No great leaders are MBAs. Gordon Moore, Andy Goove, Jack Welch. All are PhDs.

Anonymous said...

those marketing strategies are hare-brained for sure! but guess who's more hare-brained? the indian consumer who falls for these strategies!

a big yawn said...

we need do an elasticity analysis to find out if really the consumers are hare brained..
and whats the impression on the consumer mind..
we had to check if instead of Sharukh Khan... Indra Nooyi had one the ad for pepsi would cokes demand actually rise..
i guess not.. its a myth that because stars endorse brands, means consumers buying them.. sprite might or seven up is hardly endorsed by stars.. and has good demand in the Market..
for seven up Fido himself is the iconic star..as kids.. a cartoon does have an impression..
and thats a good strategy..
i will buy Park Avenue or Raymonds even though no star in not endorsing.. and will still buy Louis Phillipe even after it endorsed Sharukh Khan in don which to me was a negative publicity..
If we were brand loyal because a star endorsing it.. i am sure then we would have been termed air head for sure.
today a brand like nike does not need to sponsor the Indian Cricket team , for making us buy nike.. and am sure stats will show that.. the growth of nike market in India has not increased geometric proportions for sponsoring the Indian team
For consumers at times buying the product is necessary,.. and for gods sake i wont buy Dollar or Lux undergarments because big stars endorsing them.
So the product quality and the brand image is the important issue.. once u create the brand image u need not advertise at all
.. and buying products does not make a consumer hare head

avimanyu said...

talking of brand image reminds me of something. Intel decided toi put its logos on the paddles of Chinese bicycles.
Pros: everyone came ti know of the brand.
Con: Intel makes paddles.

Thanks.

a big yawn said...

hahahahha

but tell me how many times have u seen a Rolls royce or Mercedes advertisement??

And will u seriously think even if you are huge shewag or salman fan to get your wedding suit stiched from Mayur and not raymonds or park avenue??

Anonymous said...

I guess, I had to add something here...Mr.Sam Palmisano who is currently the Chairman of the Board, and also the President and Chief Executive Officer of the IBM Corporation, holds just a grduate degree in History (from The Johns Hopkins University ofcourse). Its a different story all together that, in July 2006, he was awarded an Honorary Fellowship from the London Business School. But prior to that in September 2005, Palmisano was awarded an Honorary Degree of Doctor of Humane Letters from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, in recognition of his leadership role as co-chair of the Council of Competitiveness’ National Innovation Initiative. My intention is to underline, that the MBA lobby acorss the world wants their lobby to stronger than ever, and therfore, if they find someone highly successful in business who is still not any MBA...make him an MBA!!!!!

avimanyu said...

Sounds like if you can't beat them join them.

avimanyu said...

Even Ian Davis (MD Mckinsey) is hold degrees in Politics, Economics and philosophy form Oxford.

iHatEtiTo said...

hmm, quite a take on our b-schools i see.
i belive management is something hereditery, you either have it or you dont. the boy who was captain of your school football team is most likely to also be a manager in the long run. and talking of captains, the skipper of the cricket team is as much a cricketer as a team leader.
my point is, you dont need a bschool to be a manager. and even if you are an engineer and then get an MBA, then you still are an engineer first. when it requires a firm of 20 architects to design a bridge, they will still require a team lead, who would most likely be also having an mba from somewhere and not selling soaps. the question is twofold - are we challenging the b-schools of india or the necessity of getting an MBA? i believe in this blog avi is trying to do a bit of both.
true - a master in economics gives you more in-depth knowledge of a subject than an MBA, but arent we getting confused here about the reason for joining an MBA course? surely you wouldnt expect the honours in english course to strengthen your maths skills!!
do we join mba to "learn" management or to give direction and shape to the management skills we already have? true, most indians would consider it to be the former option, but i am a firm believer that management can not be taught. you are born with it, the schools will actually give you exposure and direction. you gather the skill and then move on to your own discipline to lead in your fields. not necessarily every mba from india will join p&g or colgate palmolive. tcs would prefer an mba with an engineering background, but not an mba with honours in english - why? hey, he would still need to be technical!!
talking of indian b-schools, i think that is directly related to marriages - if more mba's are in demand, we have to create a factory to keep the supplies up, right? if there is great shortage and also need for cotton, you wouldnt really care to check the tag as long as you got hold of one. these mba's are no good outside india, nor so in most indian industries - they just grow like mushrooms, are harvested, and finally cooked in olive oil and eaten well with white wine.
i am not an mba- neither do i want to be one - no matter where it comes from - i think i already have it in me.

Anonymous said...

I guess what you have written is applicable for a major
portion of the indian working population.
However, in doing such a generalization that the MBA degrees only
teach people to sell soap and hence all engineers are out there
strategizing the sales for the same is not very accurate for either
the curriculum's or objectives of the best business schools or those
graduates who leave the business schools to do more than sell soaps
and go into investment banking.

What I abhor is that Indian graduates are in such a hurry to go
through their BEs and what have you, then onward to the MBA in a such
frightening pace they neither carry the depth of experience or
hindsight to appreciate what the core objective of a MBA is.

A proper MBA class from a good business school should require people
who have been in industry (services or manufacturing, from sciences or
from commerce) for about 5 years to actually get the maximum benefit.
As for applying the theories without knowing why they exist in the
first place is something you have hit on correctly. This I attribute
to the way education is imparted in Indian schools from the high
school, right to the college years, its less of encouraging
independent thinking and analysis from students than just providing
synopsis for the benefit of covering the prescribed syllabus. If one
were required to submit more research papers which were adequately
reviewed, the students would have discovered the intellectual payoffs
of figuring theories and their applicability and moving forward would
be naturally inclined to always understand what it is they are
applying.

Rest its great food for thought! Great read.

avimanyu said...

@Tito: Thats the reason most great manegers apart from rajat Gupta are non-mbas. I believe Sam Maneckshaw can run firms better than many austin reed clads. MBA is a a postgraduate course work in which a mediocre may be offerd with a pretty cute mask. The ones who are natural leaders would rather go ahead and increase the knowledge in his field or maybe create some.

Ranjan said...

Good One bro!!!!! Even i firmly believe that MBA is more of a FAD than an essential degree.

Ranjan

Arindam Roy said...

Nice read....nice topic...
Though the view is little mypic in nature. You have only referred to MBAs doing marketing, sells...
But most of the engineers (the better ones), who are good with numbers, end up doing MBA in Finance (or some derivates).
I agree that regardless of their stream, most MBAs in India end up doing a job. As nobody can be taught to be good in marketing, if one is not good naturally, it is also true entrepreneurship is something that cannot be taught. The nuances can be taught, but a businessman is 90% times, businessman by birth, and not by education.
But if one really wants to do a business, doing an MBA will definitely prove for him very valuable I guess. Because it teaches tools that might really help in taking marketing, strategy, fincacnial, or even HR related decisions.
But alas, most MBAs are often taking the easy way out of getting a job, and also never thinking in their later careers to switch to their own business.
But then MBA or not, even very few number of engineers end up having their own business.
But then again, treating Petroleum and Sugar as equal, is again a myopic stance. As we humans are also made from carbon. It is the basic building block of anything organic on earth.

avimanyu said...

Arindam, Nice thoughts but I beliueve sm1 who is truly interested in finance can do a PhD in that subject. The columbia Grad School of business has a PhD program where they use Geometric brownian motion for Stock movement study, further a great understanding of stochastic Calculus is also required for understanding of Finance. Such concepts are often a rarity in MBA programs.

Anonymous said...

I would call it a short sighted view on the entire subject...in the sense that the way MBA as a degree has shaped up in recent times has been ignored. Selling soaps and shampoos..thats what is just a part of the job of an MBA...but let me put things in perspective by just sighting the kind of profiles and jobs that MBAs of 2007 are catering to:

MBA(Marketing)
Business development
New Product launch
Branding
Strategic consulting

MBA(Finance)
Financial consultancy
Equity research
Portfolio Management
Mergers and Acquisitions

MBA(IT)
Project Manager
Consultant
Business analyst

MBA(HR)
Recruitment Incharge
PR Manager
Industrial Relations Handling
HR consultancy

So, what do you think...wouldn't you call your view on MBA's as a very narrowed down view...N believe u me, Its tough to sell soaps and shampoos in a country like India with such cut throat competition...and the trained salesman who are strategically equipped by an MBA(Marketing), invested by an MBA(Finance), motivated by an MBA(HR) and channelized by an MBA(IT) are really doing a gr8 job...what do you think?

avimanyu said...

@matrix
Like all MBAs u also missed the crux. I don't blame you. As an aspirant of jobs and high salary crux will always missed.I suggest you read what I wrote.

If MBAs are doing a great job then why all the innovative ideas are coming from non-MBAs.

I belive you dont know who is Andy groove. He is the founder of Intel. Not an MBA. No great movers in the society will be an MBA. I am sorry your views only strengthens my assumptions. Selling soaps mayb difficult but making use of the defense budget more than merely from a consumer standpoint is more difficult. In case you don't understand don't feel too bad. You may not be designed to understand.

You could have done BETTER RATHER THAN PLAGIARIZING the content of MBA classification. In fact Project management documentation has more to do than IT. It was first installed in the Roman Empire.

Uddipan Nath said...

For me, this is your best blog till date, not because this is a topic that is so close to my heart, but because it has provoked & initiated a good/health debate.

Anonymous said...

I seriously do agree to your reactions and comments...but again even u missed my point that you are not analyzing the changing times and the way this degree has evolved in recent times.

Look, everybody knows that Mr. Narayanmurthy, Mr. Gates, Mr. Ambani, Mr. L. N . Mittal or for that matter Mr. Andy Grove...all of them were not MBAs. Thats agreeable, but once you will have a conversation with them you will realize that today they say that if we could have done an MBA at our times, we would not have faced so many problems in getting success in our business.

I have factual information right from Mr. L.N Mittal's mouth that he had enrolled for this degree but had to discontinue it due to family constraints and about Mr. Narayanmurthy, have you ever pondered what is he doing by being a part of the decision committee at IIMs, have you ever given a thought why Mr. Dhirubhai had sent both of his sons to do an MBA.

Even I do believe that nothing is impossible, anyone can do anything if he/she has got the grit and determination to do it but all an MBA degree does is that it channelizes your energies and your thoughts and reduces the time of achieving your destiny...think about it!!!

avimanyu said...

@matrix.
Friend, both Mittal and Ambani sent their sons to Wharton. Why? Have you pondered whty is Wharton so famous? Its not because of the salaries or the placements. Its the Research. Go to their website abnd view the webpages of Daniel Levinthal, Lorin Hitt, Saikat Chaudhury,Karl Ulrich and Eric Clemons. These people make Wharton famous.
They create the knowledge whose byproduct are the MBAs and the products are the PhD coming out of them.

Now as far as sitting in IIM board is concerned I cannot comment on the level of committment that Narayanmurthy has towards IIM. Coz I haven't asked him. KR Birla sits in the TATAs board. So nothing can be commented on who sits where.

Professor Dipak Jain (dean Kellogg) sits in the editorial board of the journal of the Society of Operational Research Society of India. That does not mean he has too much faith in the journal. Nothing can be commented from honorary posts.

Anonymous said...

Your "no comments" or silent tone gives me a hint that finally you have given some thought on an MBAs view...Thats commendable...

And yaa, even I agree that the research part needs more focus in the Indian scenario also, but again I would take side of the Indian B-Schools that they are focusing on this aspect also...

And moreover, the Indian management students at various B-schools know that just making strategies to sell soaps is not gonna work for them...they are focusing to be among the most competitive in global scene also...try having a talk with a fresh MBA and I can assure you that their focus and inclination towards research will make you think twice on thoughts... !!!

a big yawn said...

At Matrix: Firstly to these jobs u dont need an expertise.. i can know how to advertise a product, and how to do it..without doing an MBA, but will an MBA be able to do a market strategy analysis without knowledge of say game theory..
well i am sure you are not an MBA as of now, and surely an aspirant.. these views are that of an aspirant and not an MBA..as MBA graduates know what whole lot of globe they have done over 2 years
Its ALL FART AND NO SHIT

a big yawn said...

Also Did Narayanmurthy ever do an MBA.. or did JRD TATA..but JRD made sure that Ratan Starts of from the shop floor of TATA steel

avimanyu said...

@matrix
What research are you talking about. Among business Schools in India, The doctoral programs in ICFAI Business is nothing more than a case writing machine.
The Fellowship program in IIM is just considered a step son. Research? How many original theories have actually come from the "research" minds of MBA students in India.
AND BY TH WAY I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RESEARCH MIN DSET OF MBAS. I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PHD STUDENTS IN BUSINESS SCHOOLS.
If you see the PhD programs in HBS, Wharton, Sloan and Stanford you will see less than 1% of applied students actually get theorugh.
I am sorry to say that Our Business Schools had not done anything to create knowledge.

Anonymous said...

Its interesting that the context of the debate has changed from the non-performing Indian MBA students to non-performing Indian B-Schools...

But I wont put any comment on that...coz in that sense India is still striving hard in every walk of life...

We talk a lot about the shining indian IT industry...but can you name any big product which Indian IT Industry have brought out...what they are doing is just mundane and cheap rework which the US IT majors don't do because of crunch of time...

So it seems that I am having a debate with a few Indians who just like to keep cribbing about their country...although its a grave reality...but yaa if you want us to see shining...a lot needs to change here...be it the education system, political ministry, govt. institutions, and for that matter the B-Schools...

So, lets stop cribbing about each and every thing out here...n be a change to bring out a change...!!!

my space said...

i thoroughly deny and disagree wid ur views..to a certain extent yes..ppl who enter MBA after engineering do tht for big bucks..but trust me..ppl frm IIT..or atleast an engineer who's worth his value..wud never rest at selling shampoos and all tht crap even if he's paid a lakh a month.for a year or two..fine..but i knw of ppl who've opened firms and places tht support poor and old age ppl..leaving really highly paid jobs..if ppl lik steve jobs were thinkin on those lines..we might hav never got an ipod..for every 10 such shampoo selllers..we hav a narayn moorthy..or steve jobs..and i guess thts true logically too..coz u dont get such kinda talent a dime a dozen..

avimanyu said...

Steve Jobs though that coz he aint got an MBA. Neither is Narayan Murthy. So u are contradicting your own thoughts. If you are looking for talents among MBAs and among the sample you mentioned Steve Jobs and NarayanMurthy, you are making your case weaker coz none of the two have an MBA.
Dude, if you are a researcher from Frost & Sullivan, let me tell you one thing. Its the next worst thing to an MBA.

Anonymous said...

dude...what are your credentials ? are you an engineer or an mba yourself ? your arguments are as cliched as they come.

"selling soaps"...ahem...does requires brains or else hll wont be paying lakhs of rupees to mba grads. ever wondered how does hll know how much to produce , where to source the materials from , where to supply them , how to minimize the costs , supply chain management , etc ? ever wondered how a soap reaches the remotest village of india ?

its very easy to crib without getting your facts right. just do a quick google yourself and you will find people saying that the indian job scene doesnt do credit to an average engineers IQ. companies like infosys give shitty work . what engineering waste are you talking about ?

a big yawn said...

i dont think many engineers here in the thread any way.. as i agree than making soap takes a lot.. selling them does not..
thats why they are called Fast Moving.. the ads done by the Ad world which has a creative side to it.. I can Sell soaps.. even if i dont have an MBA degree
and dont you think an Economist will have a better strategy knowledge than an MBA.. they are at least taught 2 papers of Game theory in their masters??

avimanyu said...

@ Anomyous
U want to know who I am. Read and download the paper "Modeling the Effect of Consumer Utility through Personalized Services and Compensating Variance through Greater Product Variety on Increased Spending in Online Advertisements ". U can do that from http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=646822


Then you may know what I do.

As far as supply chain management is concerned I hold a master of science in Information Systems with a perfect GPA of 4.0/4.0 (over 92%). U use these terms as a pinching bag, just like an mdeiocre MBA who sweats out to sit for the CAT in dereams of a better job abd matrimonial upliftment.
And credentials need not be posted to prectice democracy. In case u dont know what I am talking about pleae get a membership in any public library. Will cost u less than an MBA and u may end up learning more.

avimanyu said...

Hey Anonymous.

U get more money in transporting drugs across the biorders. Wann try that job?

Anonymous said...

Smashing Avi!!!

Anonymous said...

"Where the mind is without fear...
Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father,
Let my country awake ..."

avimanyu said...

Also,

Please bear in mind salary is not a function of intellectual quotent but also of risks. Thats why Formula 1 racers are paid higher than Harvard professors. And believe me if you judging the attractiveness of a job in terms of salary and justifying the education for that, I believe a marksman's job is a great one.

Anonymous said...

Have we made MACAULAY'S dream come true?

"I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation"

"LORD MACAULAY'S ADDRESS TO THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT, 2 FEBRUARY, 1835"

Anonymous said...

Further; [July 10, 1833]

"The laws which regulate its growth and its decay are still unknown to us. It may be that the public mind of India may expand under our system till it has outgrown that system; that by good government we may educate our subjects into a capacity for better government; that, having become instructed in European knowledge, they may, in some future age, demand European institutions. Whether such a day will ever come I know not. But never will I attempt to avert or to retard it. Whenever it comes, it will be the proudest day in English history".

***
LORD MACAULAY

Anonymous said...

Was Macaulay attempting to create 'Intellectual slaves' for the British Empire? Yes, if we just read the following: "We must at present do our best to form a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect".